Episode #21. Healthcare Marketing Innovation with Total Customer Growth with Adam Turinas, CEO and Founder of Healthlaunchpad

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Ed Gaudet:
Welcome to Risk Never Sleeps, where we meet and get to know the people delivering patient care and protecting patient safety. I'm your host, Ed Gaudet.

Ed Gaudet:
Welcome to the Risk Never Sleeps Podcast, in which we discuss the people that are protecting patient care and working in healthcare. I'm Ed Gaudet, the host of our program, and today I am pleased to be joined by my good friend Adam. And I'm going to, of course, butcher your name here. Is it Turinas?

Adam Turinas:
Yeah, it's Turinas.

Ed Gaudet:
Turinas. Oh, I see, I was going to say it that way initially and then I thought, oh, that can't be it, that's too easy, that's too easy. So thanks for joining us today, Adam. We've known each other for a while, actually. We're going to go through your journey. Why don't we just start? I read your book, which I will hold up, and we're going to come back to this, but ah, you've got your own copy there, beautiful. It's a great read, and to my listeners, if you are looking to introduce or build out an ABM, account-based marketing program, in your organization, this is the Bible. This is the book that's prescriptive, it's a how-to playbook, unlike a lot of garbage that's out there. Adam, like, talks at very high levels and in platitudes, I mean you really spelled it out, so we'll get back to that.

Adam Turinas:
Thank you.

Ed Gaudet:
In a little bit. But I did read your bio in the back of the book, and so, let's start off with your journey, very interesting. You were in London.

Adam Turinas:
Yes! Hello, everybody. I'm Adam Turinas, I'm CEO of Healthlaunchpad, and I'm the author of a new book called Total Customer Growth, which we'll talk about, and I grew up in London, in Chelsea. So if you're into Premier League, I grew up quite relatively close, a couple of miles from Chelsea Football Club, which I've been a fan since the age of seven, and I always wanted to go into advertising. I had family in it, and it just was fun. So after college, I joined an agency in London, which was in the 80s, which is, you've seen Mad Men, it was a bit like Mad Men, but actually a lot more fun. It wasn't quite as serious as Mad Men, I still look at it as the most fun three years of my life. And then I met and married the girl of my dreams, my lovely wife Alice, who happened to be a lawyer in Houston, and so I moved to Houston, and I joined the great ... and there, actually, my first experience with business-to-business marketing, so selling techno... and technology in particular. We were doing advertising for compact computers, and so that was really interesting. I'd been doing sort of what's called packaged goods advertising before, so basic things like Tetley Tea and Maxwell House and things like that, but as opposed to selling sort of hard technology with long sales cycles, distributors, and multiple people, and complex, right, very complex. And over the course of my advertising career, I worked with Dell, I worked with IBM, and a bunch of other companies, and I got very interested in the Internet early on. I was like one of the first people in marketing to move into the digital marketing. So at the time when we were kind of figuring it out, we were having meetings with people from Yahoo who were selling on this new idea called keywords, and I was like, oh, so that was kind of fun. Anyway, so I was in the agency business for a couple of decades, and then I decided to do something a bit more entrepreneurial, and I was working with a friend of mine on sort of basically some strategic relationship consulting and communications advice. So we were helping companies that had long-standing relationships with big customers. So like, for example, advertising agencies or law firms, and we were helping them assess the strength of the relationship with their customers. And conversely, we were also working with major companies like McDonald's and Novartis to assess the performance of their vendors, like their advertising agencies and their research companies. And a friend of mine who's a physician said, you know, I think you solve a problem that is endemic in healthcare, which is the relationship between physicians and their hospitals and their healthcare systems is pretty challenged. So this was about we're talking about the early days of value-based care. It was pre, I think it was about, I think the Affordable Care Act had just passed, and so there was a lot of disruption going on and a lot of very unhappy physicians, and there were sort of physicians who were unhappy because they weren't getting acquired, and there were physicians that had been acquired who were unhappy, and so it's just it was a very difficult time on both sides. And so we started pitching this idea to hospitals, and I remember my first meeting with him where we walked into a hospital, and I walked in, and I said, I haven't been in a hospital for 20 years since my son was born. And so I realized it was like entering a parallel universe called the US healthcare system, where it's like, wait a second, you have a completely different economic model, and you have multiple economic models, and you talk a language that I don't understand, and there are people here, like in marketing, a CMO is the chief marketing officer, well, CMO in health, the chief medical officer. I was bewildered, absolutely bewildered.

Ed Gaudet:
... Complexity.

Adam Turinas:
Yes, exactly. But thankfully, you know, I had this great partner, a physician who could translate for me. And about 3 or 4 months into it, we thought we had an idea for an app. We basically said, I wonder if there's an app for this communication problem, and we develop the concept, and we pitched it to a wonderful guy called Joe Scott, who was the CEO of Jersey City Medical Center, then became the chief transformation officer at Barnabas Health. And he said, you build that, I'll buy it. And so we went off, we hired some developers, and he then allowed us to test this minimum viable product of a secure communications application with his emergency room, and they loved it. They absolutely loved it. So much so that at the end of the pilot, we said, we've got to take it off you, and they wouldn't give it back. So we thought, we've got something here, so we commercialized it and then launched it. The company was originally called Practice Unite, and.

Ed Gaudet:
We met back then.

Adam Turinas:
We met back then, exactly. Because, well, this is an interesting market. It's sort of marketing positioning story because we were positioning it as a physician alignment tool, and when we go into meetings, I'll talk about some of the role of ABM in that a bit later on, but when we would go into meetings, what people would say is, Well, that's just great. We need a physician alignment tool, but actually, what we really need is a secure texting solution, and you've got HIPAA-compliant encrypted messaging; that's exactly what we need, we'll buy you for that. So we just realized that we had unwittingly entered what was then an exploding market where you were leading the team at Cortex, right?

Ed Gaudet:
That's right, Imprivata.

Adam Turinas:
Imprivata, yeah, and I remember coming up to you with Stu at HIMSS and getting to know you, and you know, you were good, you gave some good advice as well. And then we also, around the same time, we met the guy, I can't remember his name now, the guy who founded Perfect Serve, and we were sort of looking at what Tiger Connect or Tiger Techs, you know. So all of that, we're all in competition with Vocera, and it was, you know, it was fascinating time. And, you know, long story short, we raised some money, we kept growing the company, we absorbed the assets. We absorbed another company called Unify Health, and they had a, it's such a great name, the notion of unify, bringing everything together, and so we adopted their name, and we brought on some of their team. And, you know, you go through a lot of ups and downs, we had a rough couple of years. And then kind of got to the point, frankly, where, you know, the market was consolidating, and Epic was starting to move heavily into market and, you know, with ... Epic chat, and we thought we're going to run out of room here. And so we got to the sort of go big or go home point, which is like we either needed to raise $20, $30 million to really attack the market or get out; and the board just said, look, it's just not going to happen. So we ended up selling the company to Harris Healthcare, and I'm pleased to say, I think Unify Health is still in, the website is still up. I don't know if it's been updated in the lot, I may be still on there as a CEO.

Ed Gaudet:
Was that in 2017, '18?

Adam Turinas:
2019. We sold in 2019, and the product apparently is still being marketed. And so after that, I thought, you know, I actually want to go. I took a bit of a break, traveled, and then I said, you know, I want to go back to my roots, which is marketing, but I also felt I had unfinished business. And what I mean by that was that we, early on, my partner and I said, you know, the wonderful thing about healthcare from a marketing standpoint is it's what's called an addressable market, which means, you know, you can get a list of the hospitals, the healthcare systems that they're part of, and you can build a list or buy a list of all the people who work there. And that's hard to do in many industries, but it's actually relatively easy in healthcare. And so we said, well, all right, who are we going to go after? Because there's 6000 thereabouts, US hospitals, maybe 1500 healthcare systems. And so, who are we going to go after? And we said, you know, the key thing is that every single one of the early deliveries that we do goes flawlessly, and so we've got to be there to make sure that that goes well. So it's like, hey, the criteria for a best-fit account is two things. Number one, we've got to be able to drive to it. So there's a geographic 150 miles from our offices in New Jersey. And then the second thing is what we call the Goldilocks account, and what that means is that the hospital was not too big, not too small. They were too big, you know, like you're selling to Ascension, you've got to go up and up and up and up, and you take five years to sell to Ascension, right? On the other hand, if they were too small, they didn't have the budget.

Ed Gaudet:
Or the resources.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah, the resources, exactly. And so we ended up going for sort of medium-sized regional healthcare systems. And so we had installs at Barnabas, Barnabas at Hackensack, Meridian Health, we had some penetration at Northwell, and then a lot of hospitals like Hunterdon and Inspira, small healthcare systems. And so we built up this footprint, and then through resellers and through partners, we expanded. So we expanded into North Carolina and Florida and a bit out into the Midwest, and that's at the point where we ended up selling the company. But, you know, I realized that we got really, really good at organic growth in the sense that we could get a customer to start using their product, and if they liked it, they would then say, well, can you integrate it with our electronic health record and can you add this feature? Because it was a very modular system. And they would also say, well, we now want to expand it out to six other hospitals. And so all of our growth was actually, at one point, was coming from existing customers, which is a good thing, but we stopped being as effective in getting new customers. And the reason was, is that we lost the plot in what we started doing, which is being really precise about the accounts we were going after; using LinkedIn to reach out to customers, using PR and events to connect with customers, and so I was always frustrated that we lost that trajectory. And so, I then, I started Healthlaunchpad to help companies get into the healthcare market, but as I was going through that process, I then started to learn about a thing that had been around for about a couple of decades by then called account-based marketing, ABM. And I realized, well, actually, when we were being successful, that's what we were doing. And the other thing is that in the second kind of like, think about it, like it's like a game in two halves. In the first half, we were really successful at getting new customers. In the second half, we were really good at organic growth through growing the existing customers. And I realized this like it sort of fits into these two things. One is account-based marketing. One of the problems with account-based marketing, there are as many definitions as there are people, right? There's the notion of ABM and ABA. And so ABM tends to be more thought about in terms of how you get new customers.

Ed Gaudet:
Right.

Adam Turinas:
And then ABA is more about how you grow existing customers.

Ed Gaudet:
Right.

Adam Turinas:
And so, as we've developed Healthlaunchpad, we've developed this concept of Total Customer Growth, which is the notion of how you find customers. So for anybody out there who works for a software company, or an enterprise software company, or a consulting firm, part of the challenge is to go out and get new customers, so how you find new customers? And then, the second part of the story is, is that once you've got them, how do you make sure that, you know, that they're satisfied and that you can keep them, grow them, and then turn them into your evangelists? Because that's the real secret sauce, is taking your most positive customers and turn them into your strongest advocates. So the notion of Total Customer Growth is that whole customer.

Ed Gaudet:
Which I love, which I love, and you're right, like many people think of as that left side of the equation. But I remember when I got your book, and I saw the name of it, Total Customer Growth, I thought, Oh, what a boring name. Oh, can we come up with something better? Poor Adam, like, you need some help here. And then I read it, and I realized what you were getting at, I'm like, oh, it's brilliant. It's brilliant in its simplicity, actually. It covers the exact thing that you were literally prescribing in the book.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah, it's funny about the name because quite a few people have said the same thing, which is just like, did you go with a more exciting title?

Ed Gaudet:
Once it reveals itself, it actually is so powerful.

Adam Turinas:
Thank you.

Ed Gaudet:
You realize, yeah, then you realize, Oh my God, that's it. Like, what else would you call it? I mean, it's perfect for it, right? So, well, it's like anything, right? With branding, you can put out the word foo, and eventually, it's that reflection of your customers that creates that brand, right? And if you're doing all the right things and you're going to create that brand...

Adam Turinas:
We had some other ideas, and we actually tested them with folks. And so there were some people who had the same sort of, there were people who called sort of truth-tellers who would say, oh ... is so boring. It's like you should call it whatever it was. It's like, yeah. And then the majority of people said, you know, actually when I see it with the subhead and when I understand what the concept is, that's the, what you should call it. And it's like, yeah, we'll go for safe.

Ed Gaudet:
No, I love it. I love it. It actually works well. And you've branded like, it's published by Total Growth.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah, we self-published.

Ed Gaudet:
Yeah, you self-published it. And so talk to us about that, what was that like?

Adam Turinas:
Well, I'll tell you about the whole process of writing a book, because there's a book about writing a book. So like many things, it's like building a house. 90% of the work took 90% of the time, the other 10% took the other 90% of the time.

Ed Gaudet:
So great. Yeah, well, it's like anything. Building a house is a great analogy. It's, the third house you build is actually you start getting it right.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah, exactly, yeah. My third book's going to be really good. The prospect of writing another book just fills me so much.

Ed Gaudet:
How long did it take you? When did you start doing it?

Adam Turinas:
Well, here's the thing, as I actually started the process of writing a book in January of 2022. I didn't start writing anything until October of 2022, maybe September.

Ed Gaudet:
Spoken like a true writer.

Adam Turinas:
Well, I mean part of the issue was, it's a daunting hill, right? And it's 230 pages. It's a relatively short book, it's like 45,000 words, but that's a pretty daunting still. I mean, I write a blog post every week.

Ed Gaudet:
It's like 45 of those.

Adam Turinas:
45 of those. Well, and this is, ... This is how I actually said, oh, I know I'm going to write this, because I had another issue, which is that I'm pretty disciplined about writing a blog post every week. And so I just thought, I can't write a blog post every week and write a book. I just can't do it. So I thought, oh, I know what I'll do. I'll write this. I've got the outline.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, I love it.

Adam Turinas:
Every week, I'll write a blog post and I'll write the chapter and then publish the chapter as a blog post. So most books actually are already written already.

Ed Gaudet:
Really? Actually.

Adam Turinas:
The other thing, which was, and actually was, you know, it was actually the, it was, really was the sort of the catalyst for getting started was, great friend, Ben Pearson, who was the chief marketing officer of ..., which is a very.

Ed Gaudet:
Phenomenal product.

Adam Turinas:
Fantastic. And so he parted company with them, and he had a startup he was going to get, and he wanted to take a little bit of time before he started the startup and get prepared and sort of get his runway. Ben has taught me a lot about AMB, because he implemented AMB using the Terminus platform at, probably about four years ago, started doing it, and went through the whole journey, really had it humming. And so I thought, well, this is great. I've got a subject matter expert. So I said, hey, look, would you like to write the book with me? So we wrote it together. And so that's why a lot of the feedback we got for the book is, we really appreciate the fact that you've actually got real stories in there about how you do it.

Ed Gaudet:
Fantastic. Talk about Terminus and talk about Bombara. Are those two things in it? Were they integrated for him?

Adam Turinas:
They ... peanut butter and chocolate. So Bombara is intent data, so they are one of the leading sources of third-party intent data. So first-party intent data is what activities customers are doing on your website first, your first-party. Second-party intent data is things like G2 and Capterra that can syndicate to you, can let you know people are searching for people in your category, and we will sell them to you as leads, and it's explicit. You know, there's a very clear process for doing that. Third-party intent data, I think is almost like magic. And God, I wish I'd had it when we were doing ... with Unify Health, I think we'd have been six times the size that we had it. But simple thing that it does is it allows you to identify who might be in market for what you do. So let's say you sell clinical communications system, so you would use Bombora to identify accounts that are actively, seem to be actively looking for content related to clinical communications. It basically, it's a buying signal if you like, and Bombora is one of the, there are the Zoom Info has pretty good stuff as well, and there are other companies that are getting into the market doing that, and Demand Base has their own as well. So Terminus is an ABM platform, so it's a software platform, and it basically allows you to run an ABM campaign. And so the idea with those platforms, and there are many of them, we actually have one, we also license as well for ourselves called Propensity, and then there's Demand Base, and there's Six Cents, and there's ..., and ..., there's a whole bunch of them. What you do is you say, okay, we're doing a program, let's say we're doing a program for one of our clients, and that client happens to be in the telehealth space. And so we'll start with, they say, okay, we'll say, what's your account list? Well, we tend to deal with healthcare systems that are between, I don't know, 100 beds and 500 beds. So we ran that sort of mid-tier, it's the Goldilocks thing again. So we will, basically, you upload a list into one of these platforms, and then you look at topics around telehealth, and then you say, okay, out of that list of 500, these 100 seem to be particularly interested in telehealth right now. There's buying signals for it. And so, and then what you do is you run marketing campaigns that say target them with LinkedIn ads, you would run email sequences to them. You try and reach out to them through social media. Your STRs, try and see if they can schedule meetings for you at events that are coming up. You basically develop a marketing playbook which is geared towards identifying the accounts that are intent. As you see companies move through the pipeline, you then sort of double down your outreach activity to them, so it's a much more efficient, targeted, and much more personalized approach to marketing.

Ed Gaudet:
I love how you talk about LinkedIn and the integration with LinkedIn into those platforms. I think that's a really good way to think about adding that extra, that last mile of targeting.

Adam Turinas:
It's faster. I mean, you know, LinkedIn. We use LinkedIn in a couple of ways. There's paid, and then there's the organic way. So the paid way is pretty simple, which is you take a list of accounts, you load them into LinkedIn, you give a sort of a list of titles that you're targeting, and you run ads against those titles, and then you can see ongoing basis who happens to be engaging with them. And so ... run a campaign to 500, well, actually, let's say you filtered it from 500 to 100 through the use of intent data. You run the campaign to the hundred, and then you come up with 20 that are really engaged with your ads. So then the next thing you then do is then use LinkedIn to start reaching out, using social selling to engage with the prospects. I'm making it sound a lot more linear ... because it looks a lot more like hockey or basketball than something that's really sequential and linear.

Ed Gaudet:
Interesting. So a couple of questions I ask everyone, what would you tell your 20-year-old self if you go back?

Adam Turinas:
Oh, good Lord, it's not so much to tell as I'm in my 50s.

Ed Gaudet:
I think you and I are the same age, actually, and our pasts are really eerily familiar. Like you're on a compact, I was on the Compact 386 at the same time. Oh yeah, had the same type of revelation with the internet and web, and that's kind of interesting.

Adam Turinas:
It's really funny, yeah.

Ed Gaudet:
You look better, though. You've aged better.

Adam Turinas:
Oh, you got cool shots ... me too. So I'd always wanted to be an entrepreneur, but I was always too risk-averse to do it. And so I kind of did it, I've actually started six companies. First one was an unmitigated disaster. Second one was sort of okay. But, you know, I sort of walked away from, because I got bored with it, and I needed to go get a real job. It just wasn't, the rest of the team was sort of doing it as a lifestyle business. So I was like, actually, let me do something substantial. And then the number three, actually, what we did was we expanded into healthcare. So we were doing this relationship management thing, and then that then became, it started as a consulting business and then became a software business. So kind of three, four, and five are kind of a sort of an evolution of that business, and then the number six is Healthlaunchpad. And I've kind of, we've sort of started another business, although it's really more of an extension. So we've started another business called Total Customer Growth, which is to serve the needs outside of healthcare because we want Healthlaunchpad to be absolutely dedicated and focused on health and healthcare, particularly healthcare technology. But Total Customer Growth then becomes a platform also for things like training and things like that. So I'm sorry, I've got off.

Ed Gaudet:
No, that's great. I love it. I love it.

Adam Turinas:
I wish my advice to myself would be, take risks. I wish I'd taken the, I wish I'd failed at the first two businesses 15 years earlier, right?

Ed Gaudet:
Yeah, no, it's so true. It's like when I started the company in '17, and that's all about risk management, and I thought about risk, and I went deep into risk about the history of risk, and risk has been with us since the dawn of mankind, right? And it's amazing how every day we think about risk, whether we do it consciously or subconsciously. And I love that answer, take more risks. I tell my kids that all the time, like, now's the time to take risks.

Adam Turinas:
Absolutely. Yeah. So my son, what did he do? He went straight from college into a sales job, which was great. It was fantastic. It was right off the payroll, did sales, tech sales for seven years, and now he's in law school. I was like, okay, when are you going to take some risks? No interest.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, it's interesting.

Adam Turinas:
I think he's right because he grew up around, but my wife, his mom, is a lawyer and had her own law firm. And so he kind of saw all of the sort of both of us going through having our own startup.

Ed Gaudet:
How did you meet Alice? I'm always curious.

Adam Turinas:
She actually did an exchange at the college that I was at in the UK and we had a lot of, we didn't actually know each other in college. We had a lot of mutual friends; we met subsequently.

Ed Gaudet:
I met my wife in college. We've been married, just celebrated our 33rd anniversary.

Adam Turinas:
Awesome.

Ed Gaudet:
How long?

Adam Turinas:
It'll be 35th this year.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, 35. Oh, that's terrific. Wow. So I've got to ask you this question, since this is the Risk Never Sleeps Podcast, what is the riskiest thing you've ever done, Adam?

Adam Turinas:
Yeah, it's interesting. It didn't turn out to be that risky, but when I look back on it, it was pretty risky. And that was, well, actually the riskiest thing I did was starting Unify Health. That was definitely the riskiest thing and also the personal risky thing afterwards, but without a shadow of doubt, it was so exciting. But it is, until you've done a startup, which you've done, done it yourself, you have no idea how to ... You have no idea. I had no idea how tough it was until I did it, and so much so that I wouldn't do another software startup. I just don't have it in me to do it. It's too hard and it is very risky. I mean, it literally, I drive by a Jaguar dealership and say one day I'd be looking and going, oh, I could go get myself one of those ... types. And then the next day I'd go by and go, I wonder if they're hiring.

Ed Gaudet:
That's a similar experience.

Adam Turinas:
The other risk is, is one of my passions is sailing and I got to fulfill a wish, a dream, a wish list last year, which is to help a friend sail his boat from Bermuda back to Newport. It was a very benign passage. I've been sailing for 40 years, and I absolutely love it, but I've never really sailed much more than 20 miles offshore, and so I really wanted to do it, you know, 300 miles offshore.

Adam Turinas:
Oh, yeah.

Adam Turinas:
You know, you're in the Gulfstream and you can get in trouble. We had a benign passage.

Adam Turinas:
Oh, you're lucky.

Adam Turinas:
It's just, you feel really vulnerable.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, yeah, yeah. My wife grew up on a boat, and we sailed to the Bahamas one year. Sparkman Stephens? Yeah, 40.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah? Oh, wow.

Ed Gaudet:
Sparkman Stephens, yeah. Now, do you live in Jersey, by the way?

Adam Turinas:
I don't. I live in Austin now.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, you're in Austin?

Adam Turinas:
Yeah, I used to live in New Jersey, yeah.

Ed Gaudet:
So I thought you were in Austin.

Adam Turinas:
So the boat, actually, the boat sail back was, I think, Spartan Seas designed Swan 44.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, cool. Yeah, that's a great boat.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah.

Ed Gaudet:
Yeah, she can sail, that's for sure. So you grew up in Chelsea. Did you ever get to Manchester to see New Orleans or Joy Division or?

Adam Turinas:
No, I'm, it's funny. I actually grew up in more London bands.

Adam Turinas:
More London? Okay.

Adam Turinas:
Jam and The Clash and all that.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, the Jam, Clash.

Adam Turinas:
But never, no, never, because I moved to the US. I have a lot of, like, concerts that I wish I'd gone to. And I remember when I was in college, the Smiths played.

Ed Gaudet:
Oh, love the Smiths.

Adam Turinas:
I'm just like, oh, they're all right, and then friends went and they came out. That was the best concert I've ever been to.

Ed Gaudet:
Smiths and Cure. The Cure, I was a big fan, yeah. Oh, that's very cool. Hardest lesson in your career?

Adam Turinas:
Hardest lesson in my career?

Ed Gaudet:
I'm gonna keep going because you're interesting, Adam. You don't mind? Just let me know if you have a hard stop.

Adam Turinas:
The hardest thing is golden handcuffs. It's ... talk about poor little rich boy, but I reached the stage with one of the companies where I was really locked in, and I was in a very unpleasant job. I mean, it was the job itself, the clients I was working with were wonderful, the work was great, but the environment I was working in was really unpleasant.

Ed Gaudet:
Culture is all that matters, and .... you get to you realize.

Adam Turinas:
And it's like, I should have worked, should have worked, but I didn't because I was tied in financially. And so I think the hardest lesson was, it then ended badly for me, and the hardest lesson was, you know what, the good thing that happened out of this is, I'm now going to go off and do my own thing. Because the hardest lesson is then, you've got to figure out as early as possible how you can make your own money. And that's what I think is being, figuring out how to be independent is one of the most important things that you can learn in life.

Adam Turinas:
Absolutely.

Ed Gaudet:
There's a phrase that's often used, it begins with an F and it ends with money.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah.

Ed Gaudet:
Fill in the rest.

Adam Turinas:
Yeah. You know, that's, that was one of the reasons why we started the software company. Yeah, it didn't work out that way.

Ed Gaudet:
Well, Adam, thanks very much for joining us today. And for the listeners, go out there, if you're in marketing and you're in healthcare, get this book. It's absolutely required reading for any marketeer. This is Ed Gaudet signing off from the Risk Never Sleeps Podcast, and if you're on the front lines of healthcare protecting patient safety, remember, stay vigilant because risk never sleeps.

Ed Gaudet:
Thanks for listening to Risk Never Sleeps. For the show notes, resources, and more information on how to transform the protection of patient safety, visit us at Censinet.com. That's C E N S I N E T.com. I'm your host, Ed Gaudet, and until next time, stay vigilant because Risk Never Sleeps.

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